Preterism is a way of looking at scripture and de-eschatologizing it. It's very popular among European theologians who want to rid scripture of its miraculous properties and replace it with, to them, more "reasonable" exegesis. Alas, it's like the guy who took apart a computer and, when he reassembled it had done such a good job that he had some parts left over. When one examines the scripture in its whole context and sees references to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and others, he has parts left over that are difficult to explain. For example, the invasion of Israel prophesied in the scriptures in many ways is similar to the invasion of Palestine by the Romans. But the scripture portends an entirely different ending. The Jews, in fact, believed that they would be delivered from the Romans by their Messiah because of the scriptures that already existed. But instead, God delivered the Jews to the Romans and he let the temple go. John, however, spoke of the day in which Judah would not be abandoned and the temple would not be destroyed; but that they would be saved in that day when the Messiah would come, and his feet would stand upon the Mount of Olives and that he would destroy the Beast and his military machine and save the Jews and rededicate the temple. So these are the parts left over. Where were the two prophets of Revelation 11? And their resurrection? And the destruction of the Beast? And the return of the Savior in the clouds of Heaven? All these are the remaining pieces which are not taken into account by Preterism.
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
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666, Revelation, and preterism
by Richard_I inon reddit, there's a post about how 666 is mistranslated as 616 in revelation (thread).
666 and 616 are both correct.
if you read into revelations, very little is presented as actual prophecy- it's an analogous tale to describe the roman empire during their persecution of christianity.. 666 and 616 come from the hebrew tradition of converting words into numerical values.
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Are you out there, Brother Elder? Are you peeking in? Curious?
by Terry inare you out there, brother elder?.
are you finding our little show entertaining?.
in your bloodshot eyes do we appear pathetic or just disturbing?.
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Cold Steel
But do you think there are any elders or GB members who log in here? How much does this site weigh upon their minds? How many active JWs know about this site? Is it ever mentioned by elders or other leaders?
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Preterism
by Chris Tann inwhen i started to do my research concerning ttatt, i started to see the scriptures in a different light.
one thing i noticed is that when the epistles talk about the last days, christs presence, the ressurection to heaven; the writers were speaking specifically of their time, not some two thousand years later.
even when jesus speaks of his presence and the kingdom being established, he was talking to his disciples of that time and what they were soon to expect.
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Cold Steel
Well, you're entitled to your beliefs, but scripture follows a fairly consistent flow when it comes to prophecy. Ezekiel wrote, as if speaking directly to Gog: "Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face." Thus, we should expect to see numerous references throughout scripture to a great regional leader that in the latter times would sweep down on Israel with a crushing military force that God would intervene in. That we can do in Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Revelation and other scriptures.
The topic, however, is on preterism, which contends that all prophecy given by the mouth of the prophets has already been fulfilled. Whether prophecy is of any value or is credible is another discussion. But it's wrong on your part (and others) to judge the Old and New Testament scriptures as extensions of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The Jehovah's Witness point of view should be considered and then dismissed, as its teachings and conclusions are completely unsupported by scripture, revelation or tradition. To judge the actual Yahweh in the same light as what was and is now taught by Russle, Rutherford, Knorr and others is to build on a foundation of error, lies and reams of ridiculous exegeses that can never be discarded, as that would throw Russleism into complete chaos. I don't think Russle and others meant to lead others down the looneytunes path of scriptural misunderstanding.
Prophecy extends all the way to the time when Jesus' feet will stand atop the Mount of Olives and later, when the heathen will know that the God of Israel is the God of the whole Earth. To think it stopped at the destruction of Jerusalem is to completely miss the point of prophecy.
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"When you see the disgusting thing"... (let the reader use descernment)
by Ish Elon init is widely known that the roman army was the disgusting thing in the 1st century.
examine the statements below: 1. the dt was within the 1st century governing body in jerusalem.
take a look at the picture of apostles and elders in the "insight" book.
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Cold Steel
No offense, Ish, but that is the worst interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream that I've ever heard. If the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is not God's church -- if it is only a bunch of people who appointed themselves as God's faithful and discreet servant, then it stands to reason that the entire organization is way beneath God's prophetic radar. How do you know Daniel's not talking about the Seventh Day Adventists or William Miller?
Remember, no one in the Society ever had a revelation proclaiming them as God's organization, or church. Indeed, the WTBTS has always denied being a church; yet we know that Jesus organized his church because he said the gates of death would not prevail against it. So if the church ceased to be in the second or third century, then the Society, not being a church, cannot claim any authority. If the church did survive, the Society couldn't be it because it denies being a church. And it will disfellowship you if you visit a church of any type. Either way, they have zero claim on representing God.
Paul said that "no man taketh this honor" (meaning the authority to act in God's name) "unto himself, but he who is called of God as was Aaron."
So when did God "call" Russell and Rutherford? How was Aaron called? He was called of God through Moses, God's prophet and chief authority.
And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
-=Exodus 28:1=-
Moses' authority had already been established and he was sanctified of God. I see nothing in scripture or the WTBTS' own history that would indicate that anyone in the Society was ever called and ordained by God. Jesus said that at the last day, many would claim to be Christ's disciples, but that he would say, "Away with you. I never knew you." I suspect that both Russle and Rutherford now know better, as it can no longer be reasonably argued that the soul sleeps at death, and no longer exists.
The "disgusting thing" (better translated the abomination) could have been King Antiochus, but the timeframe is all wrong. Many have desecrated the temple, but the abomination of desolation not only was the Roman destruction of the temple, but more precisely, from a prophetic view, he's the Beast, or Gog, or the Antichrist, who desecrates God's third temple in Jerusalem. This has not yet happened.
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Preterism
by Chris Tann inwhen i started to do my research concerning ttatt, i started to see the scriptures in a different light.
one thing i noticed is that when the epistles talk about the last days, christs presence, the ressurection to heaven; the writers were speaking specifically of their time, not some two thousand years later.
even when jesus speaks of his presence and the kingdom being established, he was talking to his disciples of that time and what they were soon to expect.
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Cold Steel
Preterism is one of the reasons that no prophecy is subject to private interpretation. It is an example of teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but denying the power of God.
Having discussed the relative merits of Preterism with its advocates, the chief problem one runs into is the great numbers of unfulfilled prophecies still staring man in the face. It’s foundation is based largely on John’s Apocalypse, which begins with the problematic passage: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”
Just a few verses later, he writes: “Behold, [the Lord] cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.”
Preterists reason that since these things were to shortly come to pass, they then must have already happened. The problem, of course, is that it didn’t happen; then or ever.
So how do Christians deal with this? First, since it’s inspired prophecy, it must have already happened in a way we don’t understand. Or, that the text was altered by overzealous scribes, which may be one of the reasons it was rejected by the Orthodox Christians. In this case the entire work would be corrupted and essentially useless.
A third option is that it was written specifically for those in the latter days — the only people who would be in a position to understand John’s words. I personally opt for this option. John wrote it to show “unto [the Lord’s] servants things which must shortly come to pass.” Thus, to those who lived in our day. Why would this interpretation be preferable to the others? Because John was present with the Lord throughout his ministry and knew the things that needed to come to pass before his coming with the clouds of heaven. For example:
- The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by the Romans, something that had already come to pass.
- The scattering of Judah to nations of the earth, something which was taking place when he wrote these words.
- The Great Apostasy, in which the church would cease to exist among men. John, himself, indicated it would be generations in which the church, represented by a woman, would be caught away to escape the destruction of Satan.
- Its Restoration to the earth and the coming of Elijah. Some believed this to be John the Baptist, and fulfilled in the time of Jesus; however, John did not turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and vice versa. Besides, when comparing John to Elijah, as a forerunner, Jesus affirmed that “Elijah must return and restore all things.”
- Judah’s return to its ancestral homeland. This is presaged throughout the scriptures, both old and new testaments. King David prophesied this in Psalm 83:
Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God. For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have helped the children of Lot.
This prophecy is one that would have stunned the followers of Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus (had they the foresight to utter it), but it has come to pass in our day. The ancient lands mentioned in this prophecy are the very nations that have combined against Israel. And their chief argument against the Jewish state is that it has no right to exist. In no other age of man — in no other point in history — has this prophecy seen fulfillment. In the past, the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans and Turks have all vied for Jerusalem and claimed it as theirs. But in no case has Israel’s neighbors, when it was a state, ever before has sought to destroy it as a nation as it is doing now. And at the heart of it is a seething hatred of God, who has not cast off his people. Allah is not the God of Israel, but is the god of the Beast of Revelation, which is the dragon (Satan). Its great prophet stated, “The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree and the rock and the tree will say: ‘Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’”
Fanatical Muslims aren’t known for building beautiful cities, doing charitable work and furthering their religion in a way that would reflect love, tolerance, education and history. Their people tend to live in rubble, the cause of which is repeated war and jihad.
Preterism denies the incredible prophecies of things yet to be. When Ezekiel writes of Gog, the leader of an immense army that comes against Jerusalem in the latter days, the Lord asks Gog directly: Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? Preterists would have a tough time pointing to the fulfillment of an event that the prophets of Israel foretold when it clearly has not yet happened. Ezekiel quotes the Lord as saying that Gog would go up against “the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations.” That can only be referring to Judah and Israel. The Lord also states that Israel “is brought forth out of the nations.” Again, the nations that will combine against Jerusalem: “Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.” These nations again correspond to the modern nations that now surround Israel.
There are many, many more prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled. Zechariah is another prophet who described the great war against Israel in the “in the latter years” when the Beast “shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste….”
The “latter years” that the Lord speaks of in Ezekiel is our day. The Jews have been gathered out of all nations and despite what the Palestinians contend, when the Jews began gathering back to Judea, the land was a dusty wasteland. Only after the Jews brought their wealth and built up the wasteland, as the scriptures foretold, did their Muslim neighbors begin to covet it. And after Gog’s defeat, Ezekiel writes, “I [will] make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.” (Ezekiel 39:7)
Clearly, these and many other prophecies have not yet come to pass, so how can any Preterist gain a foothold in the scriptures when confronted with the above? Amos wrote, “For surely the Lord God will do nothing, save he reveal his secrets to his servants, the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) And since the world continued on after Jesus’ ascension into heaven, he must have meant the prophecies to extend to the latter times.
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.....“In the Name of Allah!”
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Killing In Self Defense
by Cold Steel inthe man was moving around in the darkness of j's home with a gun.
he was certain j. and his family weren't there, but he was wrong.
when a door suddenly opened and a dark figure fumbled for the hallway light, he had only a moment to act.
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Cold Steel
TD: No problem. I understood exactly what you meant by the two animals being two incidents of self protection. I'm not entirely certain where, exactly, you stand on your own self defense...or even if there was a problem. Some people have no problems shooting animals in self defense, but would not shoot humans. My wife, for example, wouldn't shoot people, period. She won't even let me teach her how to shoot.
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Killing In Self Defense
by Cold Steel inthe man was moving around in the darkness of j's home with a gun.
he was certain j. and his family weren't there, but he was wrong.
when a door suddenly opened and a dark figure fumbled for the hallway light, he had only a moment to act.
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Cold Steel
You say you have shot two animals in self defense, TD, but that the idea of shooting a human being had never crossed your mind. Now that it has crossed your mind, what do you think?
Shooting that cougar would have devastated me because I tend to love animals. But when animals attack, it's generally for a reason. Either it or its brood is threatened, or perhaps it's been mistreated, or previously wounded by hunters. But the creature that attacks for meanness, or for the thirty bucks in my pocket, or to rape or murder just because they like it or feel like humiliating someone -- those are the ones there should be no bloodguilt for. I hope to never take a human or animal life for the rest of my life, but to protect a family member, friend or even someone else, I would do so.
When those Americans took down that plane on 911 at the cost of their own lives, they died well. I frankly can't see a plane full of "civilised" Europeans doing the same thing. It just wouldn't be them.
There's a great deal of truth in the saying, A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. Do a search on the Internet for an article entitled, "A Letter From An Angry Reader." It may give you an entirely new perspective on how people can change on this issue.
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Can a religion claim: Only we have the truth?
by Kalos intruth is self-evident (things like: the whole is greater than its part ....).. truth is always right (things like: caring for the accident victim helplessly bleeding on the road ....).. claiming: only we have the truth is like claiming: only my university is useful.
history shows that many school/college drop-outs have made significant contributions to the society like many those who completed their education!
and on the contrary, many school/college drop-outs have made significant damage to the society like some of those who completed their education!
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Cold Steel
The Truth is that which was,
That which is,
And that which is to come.
-=Anonymous=-
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Can a religion claim: Only we have the truth?
by Kalos intruth is self-evident (things like: the whole is greater than its part ....).. truth is always right (things like: caring for the accident victim helplessly bleeding on the road ....).. claiming: only we have the truth is like claiming: only my university is useful.
history shows that many school/college drop-outs have made significant contributions to the society like many those who completed their education!
and on the contrary, many school/college drop-outs have made significant damage to the society like some of those who completed their education!
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Cold Steel
Any church can claim anything. But it would be idiotic to believe that any church would have all truth, or that all those who aren't members of that church be damned to an eternal, burning Hell...or annihilated. Jesus established his church during the meridian of time. The WTBTS does not claim to be a church, so one wonders how it could claim to be the sole repository of God's truth? Man is imperfect in his experience and judgment, so why would a loving, compassionate God condemn to an eternal Hell all those who failed to find and join a church? No church or society can claim to have a monopoly on the truth -- and if it does, its members should take a closer look at it.
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I Would Like To Know Exactly What JWs Believe Or Not Believe In
by minimus ini hear people saying it is not the same religion that i knew.
what is the major difference?.
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Cold Steel
As an outsider who has known and spoken to various and sundry Pioneers and even some Elders over the years, the greatest change has been that back in the 70s and 80s, most of the ones I met and knew were far more reliant on the Bible. They were always quick to give me the magazines, but their Bibles were well worn, and if I ever needed a NWT Bible, I could usually get one by giving the reps a dollar twenty-five. They'd actually have one with them. They were green, smelled like cheap ink and the paper seemed made out of rice (very thin). Now the Pioneers just want to stuff a magazine in my hand and be off. Very few actually seem to want to come back. Most are black in a mostly white neighborhood. Many are also with their kids and just want to hit the Denny's and go home. And, again, most don't seem to know anything about the Bible. If I ask them a question, they are more apt to bring me a magazine than to cite a scripture. They just weren't like that a few decades ago. Oh, and one more thing. They seem to have lost their passion about Armageddon. I reckon even a horse with a carrot dangling in front of them eventually learns it can never actually get to the carrot. It will always be before them. Sad, really.
